Ep 132: Active Shooter Training Buyer's Guide - Tactical
Episode 132
Published Jun 17, 2026
Duration: 20:27
Episode Summary
A lot of active shooter tactical training is built around a narrow picture: a small group of officers makes entry, neutralizes the shooter, and the exercise ends. In this first episode of a four‑part 𝗔𝗰𝘁𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝗦𝗵𝗼𝗼𝘁𝗲𝗿 𝗧𝗿𝗮𝗶𝗻𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗕𝘂𝘆𝗲𝗿’𝘀 𝗚𝘂𝗶𝗱𝗲, Bill Godfrey, Ron Otterbacher, Jill McElwee, and Billy Perry explain what good tactical training should cover, especially when you factor in the clock, the casualties, and the role of fire and EMS. They also share practical criteria you can use to evaluate the training being offered to your agency.
Episode Notes
Too much active shooter tactical training starts and ends with a few officers making entry and neutralizing the shooter. The reality is that the clock, the wounded, fire, EMS, dispatch, detectives, and command all matter just as much.
This episode of the Active Shooter Incident Management Podcast is Part 1 of a four‑part Active Shooter Training Buyer’s Guide. Today, Bill Godfrey, Ron Otterbacher, Jill McElwee, and Billy Perry dig into what proper tactical training should look like, so you can tell whether a course is covering the full problem or only the first few minutes.
They discuss:
- Why training that starts and stops with neutralizing the shooter leaves serious gaps
- How the clock becomes a second enemy, and why “stage down the street until it’s over” no longer works
- The shift from older approaches (perimeter and wait for SWAT) to faster, integrated tactics after Columbine
- A three‑part test for tactics: traceable, vetted in real events or repeated training, and repeatable/teachable
- What fire and EMS need that isn’t medical: where to stand, where not to stand, how to move, doors, “the X,” and basic movement
- Why training has to be grounded in what is actually happening now (single shooters, exterior ambushes, approach hazards)
- How to break the big problem into smaller drills (Rescue Task Force, ambulance exchange points, casualty collection points, detectives) without losing the larger context
- The value of having dispatch and command involved, even when you’re “just” working the first arriving officers
If you’re selecting, funding, or approving active shooter training, this episode gives you a starting checklist for what “good” looks like on the tactical side.
Transcript
Bill Godfrey:After 1,140 classes, we can tell in minutes if your tactical training's gonna fail. Today, we're gonna give you the list of the things that you should be looking for when you're picking out tactical training.
Billy, I'm gonna start with you. What's the gap? What's the problem with the way it's being done today?
Billy Perry:
The problem, as I see it, the biggest one is that it's too laser focused. It is focused merely on the tip of the spear and going in and stopping the shooting. But as we know and we've talked about forever, there are many more resources there. And that's only one of our enemies. And the other enemy is the clock. And we have to, we have to manage that more effectively because time is the enemy. And time costs something. It costs something in our lives, and it costs something in a active shooter. And that cost is blood and we have to learn how to focus all of our resources efficiently and effectively.
Bill Godfrey:
Ron, what are your thoughts on it? Big, big problems with today?
Ron Otterbacher:
I agree. We focus on the tactics, which is why we started this class that we do, is there's other things that have to go on at the same time simultaneously to enable us to, again, attack that clock and get people off and get them to the hospital where they need to be treated.
Billy Perry:
You're exactly right. Why does it always stop with the eradication of the bad guy? That's actually when a lot of the work just begins, and that's when the integration starts and when we have to be ready and have worked in the past to efficiently manage this.
Bill Godfrey:
Yeah. And Jill, on the fire and EMS side, what are the big gaps in the tactical training for fire and EMS?
Jill McElwee:
The biggest gap is we just haven't been training with you guys enough. We think, we'll, we're outside, we're maybe a block or two down the road waiting for you guys to tell us, it's time for us to come in. We need to be ready, we need to be upfront, know the lingo, know the terminology, be prepared to come in, because like you said, Billy, that clock is just as deadly. The second a projectile enters a human body, bleeding begins and that clock starts. So we've got to early on be integrated into this training.
Bill Godfrey:
Yeah. Ron, how many places do you see where FIRE EMS is routinely being integrated by the law enforcement agencies when they're doing their basic tactical training, their basic active shooter training? Are you seeing that?
Ron Otterbacher:
I don't think I'm seeing it enough. We're still trying to fight the concept of we're staging till the scene is stabilized when there's a lot of things that could be done to prepare us to move immediately once we can get someone in. And like we said, we may be moving an RTF into a warm zone, which is completely different from the old days where we're staging down the street until everything was stabilized. It changes the dynamics of what goes on and how quickly we have to act. A lot of things need to happen.
Billy Perry:
And you bring up a good point. The warm zone has changed. It is not the death to all who enter here area that we used to think that it was. It's truly not. And we know from experience and we know from history that the vast majority of active shooters are single shooters. And they're also not rogue members of SEAL Team six. They're genetic disasters that live in their parents' garage. And once we've eradicated him, let's bring our fire and EMS in and let us do great things and let 'em write songs about us.
Jill McElwee:
Yeah. So you're right, Billy, the, the warm zone for fire departments, and as we train across the country, we find many departments that are still living, which are guilty as charged as well, we would stay until you guys told us it was time for us to come in. We've got to have that early integration.
Billy Perry:
Got to.
Jill McElwee:
We routinely would go into burning structures, volatile situations. And because we were prepared, the reason we feel comfortable in those situations is 'cause we train and we're prepared for those situations. The same needs to happen in this active shooter incident.
Billy Perry:
I agree, Jill, you're equipped to handle that and we should equip each other for this.
Jill McElwee:
Absolutely.
Billy Perry:
And the last place that I worked in a school, we actually integrated our nursing staff into that. And I think, you know, and they were super comfortable and they're nowhere near as hard as firefighters. You know what I mean? And I think we have to be, we have to be willing to, to move out and, and do that stuff. And you have to find good training that equips you for that. 'cause all training is not good training, you know, and it has to be good training.
Ron Otterbacher:
And we've had to shift our paradigm because we used to have the stance where we would take care of the issue, then clear the entire building, and then bring in rescue resource. We've had to change. We changed after Columbine. Everything they did during Columbine would've happened to any place else in the United States. They waited for, they held a perimeter, waited for SWAT. We changed how our tactics went. We've just got to do a better job at integrating those tactics with our partners.
Billy Perry:
And all of our tactics change. And if they didn't, we'd still be fighting wars in an echelon role. Putting muzzle balls down the muzzles screaming now first volley, I mean, we don't do that anymore. And we have to evolve. We have to stay current.
Jill McElwee:
But Bill, you know, as well as I do, the mantra for the fire department has long been
Bill Godfrey:
200 years of tradition unimpeded by progress.
Billy Perry:
Exactly.
Bill Godfrey:
So, okay, let's recap here. The biggest issues with current tactical training is it starts and stops with the bad guy. It's hyperfocused for law enforcement centric action of a few officers, 2, 3, 4 officers making the initial contact, neutralizing the threat, room entry stuff. And then, you know, we're done with the exercise high five and we're not taking it beyond that. And on the fire EMS side, it's just non-existent. The tactical training just isn't getting done. And it needs to be done. So let's talk about what good tactical training looks like. What components should it have and what should those drills and exercises actually build towards in good tactical training?
Billy Perry:
They have to be realistic. And I think for any tactics, whether it's gun fighting tactics, whether it's active shooter incident management tactics, I think they need to fall under three criteria. The first of which is not the most important, but it needs to be traceable. Where did this come from? Where does it, and that's not the do all be all end all. 'cause if Ron and I come up with a plan on the back of a trunk, it came from there, you know, but if it came from dev group or it came from USASOC, then that's important too. And we need to know where it came from. Number two, has it been vetted, like has somebody done this in real life or done it multiple times in training and it actually worked ish. And number three, is it repeatable? Can we do this over and over and over again, and is it trainable and reached out? And that, those are the three litmus tests that I applied towards pretty much anything that I incorporate wherever I've been responsible.
Bill Godfrey:
Ron, what's on your list for things that tactical trainings needs to have?
Ron Otterbacher:
I think it needs to run through the entire environment where we often stop once we transport the people out and everything. What have we done to prepare our detectives to handle their part? We just, we're so limited. You know, it doesn't matter if it's fire, EMS, law enforcement, once we're done with the initial responsibility, we tend to stop the train. Let's run it out some more.
Billy Perry:
And for years we've just adopted that it's gonna take care of itself. Spoiler alert it doesn't.
Bill Godfrey:
Yeah. It generally is suboptimal.
Billy Perry:
Suboptimal at best.
Bill Godfrey:
The threat is neutralized,
Billy Perry:
Correct.
Bill Godfrey:
Yeah. And on the, on the fire EMS side, Jill, I think there is a whole world of just basic stuff that has nothing to do with medicine. Where to stand, where not to stand, how to move, you know, the X, doors, all that kind of stuff. There's some basic things that fire EMS folks need to know, should know. I think.
Jill McElwee:
Absolutely. And that's when Billy was going through his list. I added, is it a local, so that we know those, what does, are our local teams doing the tactical response teams doing? So that fire EMS that is necessary. We've gotta be integrated into this to save lives. Are we familiar with those? And when you talked about repeatable, repeat, repeating that training with all of the partners with is gonna answer. That's gonna answer those questions you just brought up. Where should I go? What is the next move that law enforcement is gonna take so that I'm ready? If I know your playbook, then I'll be ready to do mine.
Billy Perry:
And they're pretty simple and everybody involved is relatively smart. And so, you know, they're trainable. And all we gotta do is present the information and everybody be receptive.
Ron Otterbacher:
I think part of what we do is we throw ad hoc teams together, even in training that have never trained before. Cops need to go to the firehouses, talk to people, this is how we operate as a rescue task force. This is what we expect when the ambulance exchange point stood up. We do it one time during a active shooter incident management training. But if you did it more often and worked them through, this is what we expect, this is how we operate, instead of just that one, one and done, then we've got a better chance of success.
Bill Godfrey:
Yeah. And I think, you know, kind of looking at the list here, there's an inordinate amount of time on the law enforcement tactical side spent on the neutralization of the threat in terms of making room entries and the tactics of running and gunning, so to speak, I guess to to say it. But then we missed the opportunity where, how do you have a follow on team come in and approach? How do you link up? How do you start as a single officer doing an entry and then have a second and third officer move up? Do your scenarios include an officer down, like an officer gets shot, so now your team of two or three people, you've got one shot. What are you gonna do now? Does it incorporate fire and EMS in the basics? Are we moving past that first contact team and bringing in a rescue task force to go through it? So I think all of those things are part of what needs to be layered on and layered into the training. Yes, the tactics and the techniques of how to work a door in a hallway, pry it off and get in the room, they're important to learn.
Billy Perry:
Sure.
Bill Godfrey:
It ain't everything.
Billy Perry:
It's not And it's a small portion. It's a small piece of the puzzle and it is a puzzle. You know, you talk about layering and I've always thought about it as a puzzle because, and it's gotta fit together for it to be a picture. And if it doesn't, it's just a bunch of parts. And we have got to learn how to unify what we're doing.
Jill McElwee:
And I think knowledge is the answer from the fire EMS side. The more I know of what it is you are doing on the law enforcement side, the better prepared I'm going to be and the more information I can give you to help me be prepared to take care of that other enemy.
Billy Perry:
Like we were talking about the warm zone, when you realize how it's really pretty safe, you know, I mean it's pretty Okay. You know, come on.
Bill Godfrey:
I think the other thing, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on this too, that are important, you know, Billy, you mentioned that most of the time, 97% of the time it is one shooter. Generally with limited tactical knowledge and tactical awareness. Not a SEAL team six member as you, as you joked the..
Billy Perry:
A rogue member.
Bill Godfrey:
Rogue member. Yeah, sorry. Rogue member. Suddenly the joke's not funny. But I think it's gotta be grounded in what has actually nbeen trending and occurring. For example, law enforcement spends an inordinate amount of time training on room entry techniques, but in these instances, most officers that are shot or shot on the exterior on
Billy Perry:
On the approach.
Bill Godfrey:
On the approach. And so how important is it to ground for that training that you're, you know, you're trying to figure out what training you're gonna buy or what you're gonna select to be part of your agency. How important is it for that training to be grounded in recent events?
Ron Otterbacher:
I think it's critical because, you look at the example, I like to use the RTF. We take a couple cops throw 'em in with the RTF. Has anyone ever taught them what their actual responsibilities are? How to run an RTF tactically, I'm not saying I realize triage is running it, but how they're supposed to protect you. Usually we tend to just grab someone and say, you're with the RTF, go, but when have we trained on what your responsibilities are for an RTF and challenge them to where something kicks off and we force them to try to leave the RTF so we can correct that action. There's a lot of things we need to do.
Billy Perry:
You apply stimulus to see if they will, they'll leave their brethren and sister. And, and you're right. And you know, I think we have to incorporate all of this and good training does facilitate that and it covers all the facets and not just the, not just the single 'cause you can't just focus on RTFs and not the entrance and you can't focus on just the entrance and not the RTFs and the command and the staging. I mean, and it has to be all encompassing. And that's a, it's a heavy lift, but it's not an unliftable lift.
Bill Godfrey:
And I think it's also important to say it doesn't have to be all done at once.
Billy Perry:
No.
Bill Godfrey:
Every drill doesn't have to be a full end to end, but you need to make sure that that drill is incorporating all of the realistic things that that would occur.
Billy Perry:
Sure.
Bill Godfrey:
So if you're focusing on the actions of the first three or four officers that are arriving, then how many different variants is that? You know, you got an officer that's going in by themselves, you got two officers that are going together and then you got some officers that need to link in. Who are they talking to on the outside? Did you include dispatch? Are you standing up the tactical position, the basics of doing that. And in terms of including fire, EMS, if you've got an eight hour day on the range where you're working with law enforcement, I'm not saying fire and EMS needs to be there for eight hours, but get 'em out there for an hour and explain the very basics to 'em. I have told the story on the podcast before. I remember getting yelled at by a very large SWAT guy to get off the damn X and I turned around and looked at him and said,
Billy Perry:
What's an X?
Bill Godfrey:
What's an X?
Jill McElwee:
Where's the X?
Bill Godfrey:
As he,
Billy Perry:
I don't wanna be on your X.
Bill Godfrey:
Tell me, please. Tell me please, Bigfoot, how do I get off your X? I don't know what it looks like. So I think those things are important to keep in your mind as you're selecting the training for your organization. But that training should be linkable, linked back to how it's all gonna fit together. And they should be able to answer the question of how does that integrate?
Billy Perry:
Sure. And like you were talking about the flat range, if you're doing eight hours on the flat range, you may not be incorporating everything, but I think you need to be able to say, and at this point we would set up a ambulance exchange point and then we're gonna get into reunification. You know what I mean? And I think you do need to talk where things go from here and what it's building toward.
Ron Otterbacher:
I think in the training, you know, one day we need to train, all we're gonna do is work on ambulance exchange points. Next day we're gonna only work on RTFs, how to work around each other, what to do, what to expect. We don't tend to do that. We tend to have one exercise. We try to bring everyone together maybe once a year and try to take care of it. And that's not gonna be successful.
Bill Godfrey:
And I think your ambulance exchange point is a really interesting idea. Perfect opportunity to get fire EMS involved. And so you can have a conversation, say, you know, you got law enforcement officers go, Hey, this is a great spot. And then you have, you know, an EMS person that goes..
Billy Perry:
That's horrible
Bill Godfrey:
Except I can't turn around in there and I've got a way to drive through it. Oh, well you can drive across the grass. Not in this truck. I'll sink.
Billy Perry:
I'll sink to the axles. Exactly.
Bill Godfrey:
And so there's value in training together.
So let's do a quick round the table. Billy, I'm gonna come to you first on perfect world. Things that you would love to see included in a basic tactical training for a law enforcement and fire EMS.
Billy Perry:
I would say moving, literally moving live fire or moving in a simulated, like how C3 does it with computer screens, I would say moving together and having a dialogue and understanding each other's abilities. The actual real dangers and what the end result and the end goal is.
Bill Godfrey:
Jill, what about you?
Jill McElwee:
I was thinking just a few seconds ago when we were talking about this, the totality needed of training and how knowledge is power. So I would say a good training would begin with the end in mind and our end goal of an active shooter incident is to save lives. And how do you do that? Like what does that catchphrase actually mean? It means getting the patients appropriately transported to a hospital where their life can actually be saved from those type of injuries. So the more you know on the law enforcement side of what I can on the fire EMS side, the better we're gonna be. And the more I know that you are doing, the better off we're gonna be in our response.
Billy Perry:
I like it
Bill Godfrey:
Ron?
Ron Otterbacher:
I think the training needs to be focused and broken apart. It doesn't make sense when you listen to it that way. But you know, again, we tell people this is an ambulance exchange point. We have some cops and we say, okay, you're responsible for the ambulance exchange point. Who has ever taught them what the responsibilities are?
Billy Perry:
Right?
Ron Otterbacher:
We don't tend to do that. So you need to break it up. These are your responsibilities. This is what has to happen, this is what we need to look at. Can you fit the ambulance in there? Can you turn around? Are there other things that we need to consider from a tactical side? But we're just taking the cops that are on the scene and saying, you got it without any training there. I think we need to focus our training on individual responsibilities as we go through it.
Bill Godfrey:
Yeah, I would agree Ron, and I think the casualty collection point, same stuff applies to it. What I would say is when you break apart the big piece into smaller pieces so that you can drill and train on the smaller pieces, make sure that you're not giving up the context. If you're going to work on the first four officers that are arriving on scene, include a dispatcher and have them have to do those initial size up reports to a dispatcher over the radio and end it with tactical, getting a report and taking command from them. Make them go through all of those discreet steps, not just get in the room, contact with bad guy, threat neutralized and call it a day. And I think that it's important that you replicate that and repeat it across every one of the little things that need to be done. Because globally you try to do it all at once. Very, very hard for people to learn. Split it up into small pieces, but don't lose the critical part of those pieces.
Billy Perry:
How do you eat an elephant?
Bill Godfrey:
One bite at a time.
Billy Perry:
Bite at a time.
Bill Godfrey:
Where you start. Does that matter?
Billy Perry:
It does.
Jill McElwee:
Absolutely.
Bill Godfrey:
Alright and with that ladies and gentlemen, thank you for watching this podcast. We actually have three more topics that we're gonna talk about. How to select good active shooter training. Please like and subscribe so that you don't miss out on those coming. Thank you to our producer, Karla Torres. Until next time, stay safe.