Ep 83: Stepping up as Team Leader
Episode 83
Published Jun 3, 2024
Last updated Feb 18, 2026
Duration: 31:38
Episode Summary
Leadership can happen at any level. During an active shooter event, the first arriving officer should step up as team leader to ensure swift decision-making and effective communication.
Episode Notes
If you are one of the first arriving officers at an active shooter incident, you may have to step up as team leader. You’ll be making critical decisions to accomplish the mission. You can prepare for leadership, just as you prepare for entry – put yourself in the role and plan how you would handle it.
View this episode on YouTube at https://youtu.be/jHyK3HU5JKY
Transcript
Adam Pendley:So when we think about an Active Shooter Incident Management, our minds naturally go to those commanders-in-chiefs that are gonna come and be in charge. The reality is every team that goes down range is gonna have a leader, and we're gonna talk about the importance of that next. Stick around.
Well, here we are at the National Center for Integrated Emergency Response, and we're back in the studio. My name's Adam Pendley. I'll be your podcast host today. Across from me, I have Bruce Scott joining us, but welcome back.
Bruce Scott:
Thank you, Adam. Glad to be here.
Adam Pendley:
And Kami Maertz to my left here. I'm kind of turning around to maybe look at you a little bit. But anyway, I'm from a law enforcement background. Bruce has many years in fire and emergency management. And Kami, you're in--
Kami Maertz:
Law enforcement.
Adam Pendley:
Law enforcement commander now, right?
Kami Maertz:
Watch Commander.
Adam Pendley:
Watch commander and negotiator and all that good stuff. So we're gonna have a good conversation today because this, we're gonna talk a little bit about the fact that leadership can happen at any level of an organization. We know that. But when we talk about contact teams and those initial teams that go inside, and then we talk about rescue task forces, and then some of the other jobs within the Active Shooter Incident Management Checklist, we understand that they're teams, but those teams require a team leader. And how does that, how do we get that set up and what does that job really mean?
So Bruce, I'll start with you. What do you, and we can talk about it kind of from a NIMS ICS perspective or just from a practical perspective of the ASIM Checklist process. What does it mean to be a team or task force leader?
Bruce Scott:
Yeah, I think what you're referring to from the ICS standpoint is every team needs a leader, right? And they all have titles and they all mean something. But from a contact team leader perspective, I think it's really important that you understand that no matter what team is down range, they have to have somebody in charge, somebody that's talking on the radio.
There is nothing more frustrating than being on a scene, a critical incident, and people just stepping on each other, missing critical information. And I think by having defined leaders that are gonna be the ones talking on the radio kind of helps facilitate that a little bit.
Adam Pendley:
Yeah, absolutely. So speaking of contact team one, we know they're, the members of that team are gonna be coming from multiple different directions. And we talk about the first arriving officer, and then some link up for that second, third, and fourth arriving officer. But once they get together, how do they designate that team leader, you think?
Kami Maertz:
It really should be that first arriving officer. That person should take over as team leader. However, if that person doesn't, for whatever reason, there has to be somebody who says, I'm going to lead this team, that is gonna be able to make those critical decisions and is going to be able to keep that communication flow.
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Bruce Scott:
That's a hard thing.
Kami Maertz:
Absolutely.
Bruce Scott:
I mean we all come from rank-based organizations, so that's difficult.
Kami Maertz:
Well, and that's the biggest thing, yeah, go ahead.
Bruce Scott:
I was just gonna say, that's difficult, right?
Adam Pendley:
Right, well, we can't wait on a corporal or a sergeant to get there.
Kami Maertz:
No.
Adam Pendley:
In fact, many of these teams and task forces that we talk about may not necessarily have a ranking officer
Bruce Scott:
Correct.
Adam Pendley:
On the team. But somebody has to take charge. And I think Bruce talked about it a little bit already, but this idea of just one person talking on the radio.
Kami Maertz:
Absolutely. You want that discipline on the radio because it's gonna be a very chaotic scene anyways. There's going to be a lot of different moving parts that are coming in. So it's very important to minimize radio traffic. And so what we're saying on the radio is important and to have that radio discipline.
Bruce Scott:
I was just gonna say, it drives your dispatchers, you know, your communication specialists that are in a dispatch center, 911 center, it drives them crazy because they may be in possession of some critical information -
Kami Maertz:
Absolutely.
Bruce Scott:
and not be able to get that to the team lead so they can make good decisions.
Adam Pendley:
Absolutely. And I think one of the other things we talk about, and again, we can talk about it kind of from the ICS perspective, that we're supposed to use plain language, especially in these critical situations, but we ought to use position titles as well. So those three, four, five officers that are now down range, on a day-to-day basis, they each have their individual call signs. They're now part of contact team one. So the leader needs to use that terminology. That is how that team should be contacted on the radio.
Kinda the same thing with a rescue task force. So we know, again, in this conversation that we're talking about, you have, you know, strike team leaders or contact team leaders, and a task force is also a leader position.
Bruce Scott:
Correct.
Adam Pendley:
I'm gonna put you on the spot 'cause I know you know the answer, but who should be the leader on a rescue task force?
Bruce Scott:
It depends, right? That's my favorite answer for everything.
I think we all know that the rescue task force works for the triage group supervisor. So technically, it should be our fire-EMS person that's talking on the radio on the behalf of the rescue task force.
But I always tell our students is not only does the leader, what triage tells that rescue task force leader is where to go. Your law enforcement element of that is gonna tell you how to go, right? So they need to stay in touch with their leadership as well as the rescue task force. Talk to the tactical group supervisor, find out, you know, the way that they're gonna move into that position.
So technically speaking, it would be the fire-EMS person talking to the triage group supervisor. Practically speaking, I think that law enforcement needs to stay on their channel and be talking to their supervisors even though they're not leading that team.
Adam Pendley:
Right, so, you know, when we talk, and we've talked a lot about tactical triage and transport, then those are group supervisor positions working shoulder-to-shoulder. And law enforcement is gonna help give the fire-EMS folks some information about where patients are and numbers and some initial criticality, right? So that's kind of the, that's not kind of the reason, it is the reason that RTFs work for triage because that triage group supervisor has to make a decision about, hey, this first couple set of resources I have, we're gonna send them here because I've been told that's where the more serious patients are, or that's where the most patients are.
So it's the rescue task force being led by the fire-EMS element makes perfect sense, right? We know that we need to go here next. But of course, like you're mentioning, the law enforcement side still needs to talk to tactical to figure out how to get there safely and to make sure that we're going the correct direction and there's no, you know, threats downrange in that area for that RTF. So that's a tricky one, but that's the whole definition of a task force, mixed discipline, it is a medical mission, so we know that we report to triage, but if somebody's gonna answer on the radio for either team, they're probably gonna still be using separate radio channels. Law enforcement's gonna be talking to tactical. How is it safe to get there? The medical element is gonna be talking to the triage groups supervisor on their end as well.
So not everyone is great at leading others. So if you're in a position and you've been, you have to step up as a team leader, what are some immediate things we need to think about?
Kami Maertz:
I think the most important is to make a decision. Right?
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Kami Maertz:
Is that, is the indecision is what is going to hurt the mission. Is to be decisive and to make sure that the mission is being accomplished. And if you're, it's tasked to you to do that, that that's what's gonna be important to keep in mind is that it's not tactical that's going to be telling you what to do, it's going to be you making those critical decisions and letting tactical know what resources you need to accomplish those missions.
Adam Pendley:
Absolutely. And I'm gonna extend on that for just a second. You know, in patrol work, especially, that first arriving officer on any type of call, everyone else who's coming expects them to give direction.
Kami Maertz:
Absolutely.
Adam Pendley:
I need an officer to go to the back. I need somebody to go to this side. I need somebody to hold the front of the house. I need somebody to come join me, we're gonna go inside. And we expect our patrol officers to take that kind of leadership all the time, just in the fact that they're the primary unit, they're the ones that were initially dispatched and then the follow on units, they're giving them direction. And I know in a similar way, the first arriving apparatus has to do some of that.
Bruce Scott:
Yeah, first arriving apparatus on the fireside always assumes command, right? And then they give direction. That goes without saying.
But not to oversimplify it, but I really think you need to be thinking in your head, what are you gonna do if... all the time, right? Put yourself in that role, that leadership role, and say you could even listen to after action reports, and go, if that was me, I would've done X, right? You can start planning in your mind being a leader in that position, whether you're a corporal, a sergeant or lieutenant, whatever that is.
So understand that you're gonna be making those early decisions. So prepare for it like you do everything else. You can prepare for leadership just like you do how to make a tactical room entry.
Adam Pendley:
Right. And just to combine that together. I mean, I really like what you said, you just have to be prepared to make a decision. And you have to base it on the best information you have on what your mission is and what you have right in front of you. Because I think you said it earlier when we were having a side conversation, there's definitely supervision up range. I mean, we have folks at the tactical triage and transport position. We have people in the command post. There are supervisors on the way that are already there. But the team leader in that team, they're gonna have to make the best decision they can with what's right in front of them.
Kami Maertz:
Yeah, and those are, your boots on the ground are who are actually seeing and hearing what's actually going on. So they have to make those good tactical decisions, going back to say what resources we need because they're seeing, hearing. Tacticals going based on their information, just like triage and transport, they're going based on the decision, or on the information that they're provided. And that's all, that's the only thing they have to go on, really. So it's important for somebody to take leadership of that, but also to make sure that they're passing back of what's coming next. Have that forward moving thought process and say, I'm dealing with this right now, and this is what's coming, and this is what I'm going to need.
Adam Pendley:
Right. One of the things I like to say a lot is this is one of those circumstances where it's okay to delegate up.
Kami Maertz:
Always.
Adam Pendley:
At your contact team and you're telling tactical, I need another team to do this. I need another team to do that.
Kami Maertz:
Yep.
Adam Pendley:
You're the rescue, you're that first rescue task force through the door. You're having to call out what's still needed, right? And you're telling triage and transport what should come next. Because even though they're that next rank in the unity of command in this response, they're the group supervisor, so they're kind of that next level up. They can't make all the decisions based looking at a map or trying to look through brick walls. They need that information.
Bruce Scott:
Yes, Kami pointed out that, your eyes and ears are your contact teams, your leaders down range, you're depending on them to give you good information so you can make good decisions. But I think, realistically, those early on decisions are the person that's leading those teams, and every single leader on that team needs to be prepared to lead regardless of rank.
Adam Pendley:
Absolutely.
So we talked a little bit about contact team one and just the nature of having to get your team together, and somebody go ahead and say, hey, I was either the first one here, I'll be in charge, or somebody else getting there and saying, hey, you continue to be the tip of the spear, and I'll be on the radio for us. That part has to be decided. What about the rest of the teams and task forces? Where can we get leadership there, Bruce? What do you think?
Bruce Scott:
That's a fantastic question. It's something I believe in wholeheartedly.
There's a lot of problems we can fix in staging, right? As we get more resources flowing in, we're forming up those teams in staging, we can figure out who's gonna be the leader on that team, who's gonna be the person talking on the radio. That needs to be fixed in staging. So when you move out of staging, that information is, you already know how that's gonna happen. And you can even, as a staging manager, go, hey, the only person talking is you, right? Everybody good with that, right? You're no longer alpha 274, you're now contact team two or rescue task force one and make sure they know that before they leave.
Adam Pendley:
Absolutely. And I think in staging, there's gonna be a natural, you're gonna kind of see who your natural leaders are. They're gonna be the ones that are already saying, okay, hey you, you, you, come with me, we'll be, you know, we're ready. Hey, we're here, team, coach put me in. We're ready to be contact team three.
Bruce Scott:
100%.
Adam Pendley:
You know, so it's easy to make that assignment from there. So, you know, we talked a little bit about how each of the contact teams have a team leader, task forces have a task force leader. But then we, you know, again, to the entire ASIM checklist process, you know, follows a NIMS ICS structure. Because it works. I mean, and it makes it clear. And Bruce, I'm gonna steal one of your phrases. You know, everyone on the scene should know who works for them and who they work for, right? So that's what this structured. So let's talk about something like perimeter. In this process, we call it the perimeter group supervisor.
Bruce Scott:
Correct.
Adam Pendley:
Because it may be bigger than just a perimeter team, right?
Bruce Scott:
Sure.
Adam Pendley:
You may have to put a team in charge of them, or a division even, in charge of the north side and the west side and the south side of the scene. And you have a perimeter group supervisor, so that's next level up.
Let's talk a little bit about the, like what are the group supervisor positions that we've talked about a lot? Tactical, triage, and transport.
Bruce Scott:
Well, the nice thing about them being at the group level, if you will, they can ask for more resources. They can get more resources assigned to their team.
Your example of perimeter group, right? Starting off, we only may put four law enforcement officers on a perimeter, but you know you need 20. Once you get down range, that perimeter group supervisor, talking for the entire perimeter group, perimeter to staging, I need five more officers when you get 'em, 20 more officers when you get 'em to help us secure the perimeter. So it allows you to manage, it allows you to manage your resources following the incident command system, but also it makes it real world and practical.
Adam Pendley:
Yeah, it's good. I mean, I think some of these postitions we build, we know the incident is gonna get bigger. So even though we might not have a span of control problem right from the start, we know that certain positions are gonna need more resources so we call them that right from the start, give 'em a chance to build out.
And I think we kind of hit on this and it's kind of a no brainer, but should we slow down the response to wait to put actual supervisor positions in some of these spots?
Kami Maertz:
No, obviously, I mean, the main point is time. Time is not on your side in this, right? So you're trying to get ahead of things and you don't want things to get to an unmanageable level. So if you're waiting on a, that's why the fifth man, or the tactical position is a fifth man and not the first supervisor, because you don't want things to get out of control before someone comes in and starts managing those resources. And that's critical, even for your perimeter group supervisor, it's important for that delegation to be made so that somebody's in control of that and is making sure it's getting done. It doesn't necessarily have to be a sergeant or a lieutenant, it can be anybody that's just taking control and saying, I'm gonna make sure the perimeter's set.
Adam Pendley:
Absolutely.
Bruce Scott:
If you're in law enforcement, or even on the fire side, you're a leader. You're a leader in a lot of different regards. But I just think rank shouldn't matter early on. At some point, it absolutely will, when you get into some of those critical decisions. But early on, as Kami said, rank shouldn't matter.
Adam Pendley:
Absolutely.
And again, I mean, to extend on what you were just saying is, as more resources get there, you may pick those that have, again, another ICS tenet is the idea that you wanna put the most qualified person in certain positions. So if we follow even a little further down the checklist, and you look at adding the intelligence section. You know, in ICS terms, what we do would be the intelligence section chief, but underneath that is a reunification branch and into an investigations branch in the checklist, right? And then within the reunification branch, you go, again, now you have accountability group supervisor and you have some teams within the accountability group.
So as you have time and you've, you know, some of the initial dealing with the active threat, establishing CCPs, beginning patient transport, and now you're looking at some of these more complex jobs that need to get done, the checklist again follows that same process. And some of those areas, Bruce, let's talk a little bit about, you know, clearly, on the initial response, you're building the org chart from the bottom up. Those teams, you know, you get two or three teams and now you have a tactical group supervisor and you have a triage group, and so on and so forth. In the reunification branch, is it possible to maybe build it from the branch director down?
Bruce Scott:
Sure. I don't see why not. Here's the secret, do whatever needs to be successful, but do it together. I honestly believe that from the top down works in that instance, right? To be able to have your reunification branch director that understands that they're working for intel, which is also a little bit of a wonky thing, especially if you have a school district person as your reunification manager or, you know, an emergency manager that's gonna handle your reunification process. Understand that they work for a law enforcement supervisor, something you gotta understand, you gotta understand before it actually happens and how that all works together. But to answer your question, absolutely. We're gonna build that part of this incident command organizational chart from the top down.
Adam Pendley:
Absolutely.
And you hit on a fantastic point. And I know the lieutenant sitting next to me here, if you were assigned to a team within the accountability group, and the accountability group supervisor was someone from the county's emergency management, you know, do you get upset that your rank is being, you know, not considered?
Kami Maertz:
No, 'cause obviously, it's about getting the job done, right? That's what we're here for. We're here to assist in any way possible to get the mission accomplished. And so they might have more experience, they obviously, and especially in reunification and stuff like that, that's what they have trained to do and plan to do. And so their knowledge is gonna be far more than mine for a reunification standpoint. And that's what you have to look at.
Adam Pendley:
So yeah, I mean definitely in some of these areas, I think it's entirely possible that you've taken up, you've had a moment, you have the resources you need, and now you're gonna build a team out from the top down. You don't have to wait for certain things to be in place to then build as the incident grows.
But for those listeners or those that have been listening to what we talk about in our background of all of this, the reason it's structured this way is that early on, when we first started talking About Active Shooter Incident Management, there was a desire to wait on the command portion to be fully established, and then start giving out assignments. And that's not wrong, but it just takes time, it's slow,
Kami Maertz:
It costs a lot of lives.
Adam Pendley:
Exactly.
So we know that, you know, especially when you look at the start here portion of the checklist, and that, you know, you begin with that first arriving officer. And when we say it, it's even in some of the material we talk about, like if you're the only one there, who's in charge? You are. And then as others link up with you, you become a team, and you're probably still in charge. To your point earlier, you may remain that team leader because you were the first one there. You have the most situational awareness. And then other teams come in, and they hopefully have taken the time to say, hey, I'm gonna be in charge of this team. I'll be the one on the radio. But by building from the ground up and by allowing the initial response to grow in that way, the people with the most situational awareness stay in the game the whole time.
Bruce Scott:
Right.
Kami Maertz:
And I think that's a good point, and especially for law enforcement is once those supervisors do get on scene and once they take over as command and take over as tactical, that initial leader on that contact team, it's important that you're still in a leadership role. You're still in charge of this. So you can't wait for your tactical to make the decision for you because you have somebody of higher rank possibly in a command position, you're still overseeing that. So you're still in control of that for quite a while. We're typically on scenes we go to, and once the supervisor shows up, they start making those tactical decisions from us from outside of the incident. And unfortunately, it just too, unfolds too rapidly, and time is just not on your side in these incidents so you have to keep that leadership role the whole time.
Bruce Scott:
I have a question, if I may
Adam Pendley:
Sure.
Bruce Scott:
Since you're both law enforcement, would there be a tendency, say contact one is in the building, and they're all deputies or patrolmen, patrol officers, would there be a tendency when a sergeant showed up to send them, to link up with contact one? Could that ever happen or?
Kami Maertz:
I think it would depend on if that contact team is being successful.
Bruce Scott:
Okay.
Kami Maertz:
If you have a leader on there and the leader is efficient and they're getting the job done, there's really no reason to send somebody down to take over for that. Obviously, in any position, just like in tactical, you might get somebody at tactical that no matter what rank they are, they're doing really well. But you might get somebody who's really struggling in that. And so when a supervisor shows up on scene, you might naturally want that supervisor to at least come in and assist. Maybe not completely take over because they have more situational awareness, but they're definitely gonna come in and assist. And I think if I had a contact team that was down range and they were losing focus or not being able to, that might be a tactical decision that we make to send somebody who can control and lead better.
Bruce Scott:
Gotcha
Adam Pendley:
Right. Absolutely. And I would extend on that to say, especially that tactical position, even if you have to go and assist or take over for somebody who's struggling a little bit, they still stay there. They stay right there as part of that to maybe continue being the scribe and that sort of thing.
And I think the same thing would happen even if you just, as a matter of policy, maybe, your policy says that a team will have a sergeant as part of the team. You don't wait for that. There's no reason to wait outside until you're, 'cause that, you know, sometime between initial, you know, as we started to really change our paradigms and the way we responded to active shooter events, I know you may have trained or you remember the whole diamond formation thing you were supposed to wait for four officers and then you put the supervisor in the middle of the little diamond that moved together. You know, we know that's not best practice today.
But there may still be some policies or even some just departmental, hey, we want to get a sergeant on some of these teams as quickly as we can. And if that's the case, that's fine. But they need to go and make sure, just like in every position on the checklist, that they get a good verbal briefing from the team leader that was in charge and until that happened, and that they're ready to assume leadership of that team, similar to a transfer of command at the higher levels. You wanna make sure you have good situational awareness, that now you're part of the team, and that now you can take over the radio.
You know, what's interesting about that though, what doesn't change? The name of their team.
Kami Maertz:
Exactly.
Adam Pendley:
They're still contact team one on the radio, they're still contact team four on the radio, or rescue task force three. None of that changes. So if you had to transition, I think it makes it makes it easier if you use good terminology.
Bruce Scott:
Yeah, I was looking for some clarification, to be honest with you. Are we gonna put people with rank into leadership positions simply because of their rank? So that was what I was--
Kami Maertz:
And if we're honest with ourselves, there's a, I mean, if supervisors in general are honest with ourselves, there's a lot of deputies who have a lot more experience and a lot more roles than that supervisor might have. You might have somebody who is an active SWAT member or maybe a previous SWAT member or was in the military or anything and has actually more experience and more knowledge. And you have to be able to say, actually, that person can do it probably better than I can based on their experience.
Bruce Scott:
In my experience, good leaders know how to do that.
Kami Maertz:
A hundred, yeah.
Bruce Scott:
Sometimes, in rank-based organizations, that's not the case.
Kami Maertz:
You don't have to be the smartest person in the room, you just know, have to know who is.
Adam Pendley:
So what are some challenges with being a team leader or a task force leader, especially in a rapidly unfolding crisis scene of any sort, but specifically active shooter?
Bruce Scott:
I will talk to the rescue task force leader position, then maybe Kami and can talk to the contact team leader. But that rescue task force leader, on that first rescue task force in the door, has a lot of responsibility, right? Your immediate thoughts as a paramedic would be, I need to get down there and start treating patients, right? Treating the injured. Where realistically, yes, that's important, but also to get enough resources into that space so we can do a good job of treating those patients.
So defacto be a room boss, if you will, and say, you know, rescue task force one to triage, I need three more rescue task forces in this space. Get the resources coming and then focus on that patient care.
We all have a little bit of tunnel vision, if you will, on a rescue task. We wanna start treating injured. That's what we do, that's what we've been doing our whole careers, but we need to be thinking about controlling that space with having enough resources, but also look to my law enforcement brothers and sisters in there and say, hey, we need a, you know, an ambulance exchange point, right? I need you to provide security for that or get people to provide security. Kami, will you think about that while we get into patient care?
Adam Pendley:
So I actually wanna follow up. I have a question for you. I know from, you know, I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express and we've worked together a lot, but I know that typical fire ground scenes are very like battalion chief-driven.
Bruce Scott:
Regimented, yeah.
Adam Pendley:
Very regimental, very rank-based. So do you think that's a challenge for a rescue task force leader to do that delegation of up, or does that kind of thing happen in other requests for resources in different scenes?
Bruce Scott:
I don't know if it would be classified as delegation, but most company officers or supervisors that I know do not mind asking for help or explaining the situation or what they're thinking, right?
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Bruce Scott:
So as even when I was a lieutenant on an engine company, if I saw something the chief didn't see, he or she counted on me conveying that information to them. So it's not necessarily delegating it up, it's just making sure that they have all the information that I have.
Adam Pendley:
Excellent. And would that include if you're hearing the triage group supervisor maybe sending resources somewhere and you, from what your situational awareness may be correcting that or offering some information that might help them make a better decision?
Bruce Scott:
Obviously, you want your rescue task forces where they're supposed to be. You don't want 'em wandering off. We have that conversation a lot. They need to stay in that casualty collection point where law enforcement has that space.
But as a leader, I can't let my team wander off. I'm expecting my law enforcement brothers and sisters to stay with us. We're not gonna go looking for injured people. That's not a rescue task force's job. So obviously, keeping my team, I would much rather have a team that I gotta pull the reins back, than the ones that I gotta put a whip to 'em to get 'em to go. And most of these folks that are gonna be in these type of incidents are the people you have to hold back from time to time.
Adam Pendley:
So what are some similar challenges for being a contact team leader?
Kami Maertz:
So it's honestly gonna be the same except from a contact team. So what we're going to do is, or that supervisor or leader, I'm sorry, on the contact team is gonna have to keep sight of the bigger picture. It can't get focused on if they're in the casualty collection point initially, they can't get focused just on that casualty collection point, they have to think, what else have we not done? What other resources do I need down here to make sure that all of the tasks are being done? If they have, you know, depending on, you know, if it comes to a clearing portion, something like that, can we get additional task forces up here to start that portion? Do can we get ambulance exchange point? They have to keep really big picture and that leader has to be able to pull themselves back and not get in that tunnel vision and look at a higher level of what else needs to be done.
Adam Pendley:
Absolutely.
And I think we've said this every time we have a conversation, these are the types of things that need to be part of that training and exercise and working together. And I think one of the things that comes to mind for me is, you know, some of us are fortunate that we have, we come from a department that has lots of resources from that one department, right? So we may very well know the person that's working next to us, and they will take direction from us.
But what are, you know, being able to still be a leader when you have a team made up of two or three different agencies, even two or three different, like jurisdictions, right? That, you know, maybe even local, state, and federal level people that have all come to help, and they've been put on a team together and now you're in charge of it. You have to tell 'em what to do, and you have to be able to be mission-focused. I think that's the number one thing. And it falls on the other supervisors and incident commanders on the scene to say, and again, I come back to perimeter, a lot of times they're like, well, what do you mean by perimeter? It should be what the mission is.
Bruce Scott:
Don't they teach you that in first day of cop school, how to set a perimeter?
Adam Pendley:
Yes. It's, you know, it's not as easy as pulling a hose or anything, but it's, you know, but there is a mission there. So if command should say, hey, I need a perimeter group and I need them to do an exit-only traffic pattern, or I need to keep, I want to hold all witnesses, I don't want anyone else entering the scene. I don't want any other law enforcement entering the scene before going to staging.
So there's some, and if you understand that mission, I think that's being able to carry that out and be able to make sure if, like, again, picking on the perimeter group supervisor and they have multiple teams work in different parts of the perimeter that they convey that message. They have to make sure that the mission, the commander's intent makes it all the way down to the team leaders so that gets carried out. But again, I think one of the biggest challenges is understanding that you may have never met the person standing next to you that's part of your team.
Bruce Scott:
And we talk about that in staging, right? You get, if you're standing next to, you know, somebody and you've been put together as a team, you have an opportunity to make, to build a relationship. You may have a couple minutes to go, hey, I'm Bruce. And you say, hey, I'm Adam, and this is how we're gonna move through the building.
Adam Pendley:
Absolutely.
And again, I don't think the qualities of a leader change much under those circumstances. But again, to steal from Bruce, like I always do, you have to, you know, that's why these training and exercises that we go to are so important.
Bruce Scott:
Right.
Adam Pendley:
That you get to meet those people that you're gonna potentially work with.
Well that's a, I think, a really good discussion that, you know, we often, I think assume that these teams, once they're put together, that it just happens, but the reality of the importance of this team leader position can't be understated or overstated. Can't be overstated. That's what you would say.
Kami Maertz:
There you go.
Adam Pendley:
Anyway, final thoughts. Kami, what do you think?
Kami Maertz:
I just think it's obviously the most important is for someone to make those important decisions. Someone to take a leadership role and someone to make the decision. So if you start noticing that somebody is not making those leadership quality, or has those leadership qualities are making those decisions, somebody has to stand up and do it.
Adam Pendley:
Absolutely. Bruce?
Bruce Scott:
I just gotta echo that, leaders need to lead, right? They need to think somewhat tactically, but also think strategically, what we need more, what need we need to do next, right? And that's oftentimes hard for people to do that are tactically-oriented.
But I'll go back to what I said earlier. Take a minute. Think in your head what you're gonna do if..., right? And already have a game plan in your head as even if you're a deputy or a patrolman or wherever you're at in the organizational chart, I think you need to have those conversations with yourself, as well as having conversations with your partners.
Adam Pendley:
And the only thing I would add is the team members need to be part of the team. So if somebody's in charge and they have a mission, and that's being communicated to you, don't think you can go off rogue and be your do your own thing. Your team has been assigned to a specific mission for a reason, and you need to stay together and you need to get that job done.
Bruce Scott:
And that's the leadership's role, right? Keep 'em together.
Adam Pendley:
Absolutely.
Well again, thank you. Great discussion. I appreciate you guys being here. And as always, thank you to Karla Torres, our producer, for keeping us on track and keeping us
Bruce Scott:
And on time.
Adam Pendley:
And on time and doing the right thing. So with that, until next time. Thank you very much.